Forum : Genesi Guest House

Subject : 5121e and LimePC

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#  Genesi :

 2008/1/10 9:57
# We have broken our silence on the THTF Project. We wrote a blog about it today.

The Race is On!

As just commented, the EFIKA is and will continue to be a reference platform. There will be follow on chips to the 5121e, some with graphic cores and some without, but the base development platform for the e300 core is and will be the 5200B based EFIKA. You cannot imagine how much we are looking forward to providing more details as the situation develops.

Please update your Project Blogs on PowerDeveloper, and...

Thank you!

Sincerely,
R&B :)

#  jcmarcos :

 2008/1/10 10:48
# How much of Genesi (maybe Gerald and Thomas, AKA bplan GmbH) is in this cool, REAL, MASS PRODUCED product?
Will Genesi be able to finaly grab some serious money (bucks!), so many stagnated projects can be sprung back into action? Remember the good days, when the mere fact of giving away development tools (Pegasos computers) raised a whole community (first MorphOS, next Linux).

#  jcmarcos :

 2008/1/10 12:17
# Not immediately obvious: The developers of these gadgets are MTC, a subsidiary of THTF Tsinghua Tongfang.
Remember, there are actually six products, all of them based in the same platform:

05.jpg
06.jpg
07.jpg
08.jpg
04.jpg
03.jpg

There's quite a bit to read about this subject, so start googling. There's a good article in LinuxDevices.com, for example.

The operating system is LimeOS, based in Debian Linux:

09.jpg

Could some prototypes be delivered to MorphOS developers? Then we could show them how an operating system should behave!

#  bbrv :

 2008/1/10 12:23
# We are working on that...

#  Zylesea :

 2008/1/10 12:45
# Quote:


jcmarcos wrote:


Could some prototypes be delivered to MorphOS developers? Then we could show them how an operating system should behave!


MOS is always an option. AFAIK THTF is pretty aware of it.

#  jcmarcos :

 2008/1/10 13:24
# Quote:

bbrv wrote:
We are working on that...


How much of Genesi is in this product? Does it run SmartFirmware/Aura?

#  Sir_Lucas :

 2008/1/10 13:30
# @bbrv

That's a very good piece of news. I look forward to receiving more !!!

Please, do keep us posted :D

#  Omen :

 2008/1/10 15:59
# Products look very good. Looking forward to getting more details and information on them.

Hopefully MorphOS is working on LimePC sooner rather than later.

#  neongod :

 2008/1/10 16:51
# If MorphOS would run on these, that would be really great. We desperately need hardware that's available for the wide public.
Hope that they will be marketed not only in China but in the rest of the world too.

[ Edited by neongod on 2008/1/10 16:54 ]

#  sadddam :

 2008/1/10 18:42
# surely it will, why else they took it to the CES anyway?

#  wolfe :

 2008/1/10 21:57
# Goody Goody, more GEEK gadgets. Nice 8-)

Hurry up Morph OS . . . :-)

#  takemehomegrandma :

 2008/1/11 12:24
# limepc_m1.jpg

:-o

Scaling from a 42" TV down to this! Really small!

http://www.i4u.com/article13909.html

http://www.mtcera.com/os/Lime_OS/

#  pixie :

 2008/1/12 2:24
# It's going to run Linux as LimeOS... :-(

#  MorphDelf :

 2008/1/12 5:57
# These LimePC gadgets looks cool! Now Genesi knows what they need to do to get them used. By releasing MorphOS 2.0 tougether with MorphOS Team.

Now its time for MorphOS 2.0 to come out! Now its the time to work tougether. Now its the time to show that a community is so important for something to survive. Now I would gladly pay 100,- euro for MorphOS just to see it for these devices etc.

Once its out. I will be very happy. Thanks to MorphOS Team for the effort and I hope to see the os beeing released soon. I wish you good luck!

Regards,
Michal

[ Edited by MorphDelf on 2008/1/12 5:58 ]

#  takemehomegrandma :

 2008/1/12 11:03
# Quote:


pixie wrote:
It's going to run Linux as LimeOS... :-(


And most certainly MorphOS down the road IMHO, at least if the MorphOS head developers finds it worthwhile to overcome "the 5121e challanges". IMHO this is a perfect match for MorphOS, I think it's obvious to most people.

#  damocles :

 2008/1/12 14:07
# Best of luck to Genesi.

Dammy
TeamAROS

#  Robin :

 2008/1/12 16:16
# Quote:

Now its time for MorphOS 2.0 to come out [...] to see it for these devices etc.


In the past it was made really clear, that they support only
existing and documented hardware ...

I like the pictures, too and would love to see an affordable
device like the shown to run MorphOS but its still a long
road to see the products available.

Right now there is nothing to run MorphOS other than
peg.

#  Jupp3 :

 2008/1/13 12:37
# Quote:

These LimePC gadgets looks cool!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the person who has been constantly complaining about Efika not having enough memory? I seriously doubt that this will have any more than that.

But luckily that won't be needed (just like on Efika) as this isn't aimed at desktop market (just like efika)

#  Omen :

 2008/1/13 18:56
# Not sure about MorphDelf but I for one have said the Efika1 has too little memory. Yes, the Efika was primarily intended for MorphOS. Yet, MorphOS is unavailable for it. Users have had to use Linux in the meantime and 128MB does not cut it. Linux itself takes around 90-100MB and is not a lightweight OS ( with Gnome or KDE ).

MorphOS may run well with 128MB of memory but Linux certainly won't. Linux needs minimum of 256MB to run good. I believe the LimePC will likely have 256MB onboard RAM ( or 128 or 512MB ). Just have to wait for more details.

Quote:

"...as this isn't aimed at desktop market..."

I disagree. The ThinPC is aimed at the "sub" entry level ( lower end - for average computer user; non-power user ) Desktop market. The focus is on affordability ( low cost ), compact size & low power usage. On the x86 side, the Mini-ITX & Nano-ITX systems have been going after the same type of market.

#  ironfist :

 2008/1/13 22:00
# I don't think there is any market left for cheap "desktops".

I work in a computer store and I can tell you that laptops
are cheaper than desktops. When you add the monitor
you get two cheap entry-level laptops for one normal
desktop.

I see what normal people buy, every day. They never
buy desktops. They buy laptops.

#  Omen :

 2008/1/14 1:29
# Quote:

I don't think there is any market left for cheap "desktops".


Tell it to Walmart :-)
Maybe that is where everyone is buying their cheap desktops?
http://www.mini-itx.com/2007/11/11/199-c7-powered-pc-at-wal-mart

I agree, that In North America, many people are going for laptops. Students are using them at Universities & Colleges, Corporations are lending them out to employees to take home, consumers are buying them for portability, etc. Now that laptops have become affordable.

Now, the LimePC ThinPC is targeted for the desktop market. Mainly intended to be sold in China & Asia but will be sold worldwide also. Demand could be different in that part of the world. As most North Americans either 1) have a desktop already or 2) prefer to go with a laptop. Doesn't mean this is the same for the rest of the world.

Mini-ITX was made for affordable and compact desktop systems. And now, Dell & Intel are using this form factor to enter the sub entry computer market ( low cost, less than $350 ).
http://www.mini-itx.com/2007/05/23/dell-targets-emerging-markets-with-ec280-mini-itx-pc

http://www.mini-itx.com/2007/05/16/intel-to-offer-mini-itx-desktop-board

Yes the Intel motherboard is using a SiS chipset! Who would have thought this day would come?

EDIT: The Dell EC280 consumes 23 watts. The Power Supply is 65 watts. Celeron @ 1.2Ghz, 256/512MB RAM, 40/80GB, CD ROM/DVD ROM, USB2, Case: 270mm x 225mm.

#  Velcro_SP :

 2008/1/14 2:52
# Is any LimePC model available for purchase by an end-user yet?

Does LimePC make use of Genesi/BPlan firmware "Aura?"

Does MorphOS suport the gfx hardware used in LimePC?

#  Omen :

 2008/1/14 22:02
# LimePC will be available in China mid 2008 and late 2008 ( Oct/Nov ) for the rest of the world.

Genesi & THTF have a licensing agreement. Not sure the extent of their partnership or how Genesi is helping out. More information to be revealed in the coming months.

http://bbrv.blogspot.com/2008/01/read-all-about-it.html

I don't believe MorphOS 2.0 will work with LimePC. But this could change with 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, etc. I expect more answers to be available around July/August 2008 on MorphOS & LimePC.

What I'm wondering is if there will be an Efika2. It isn't clear to me if Genesi is still working on getting the Efika2 out because the LimePC ThinPC uses the same 5121 processor ( would be similar to Efika2 ).

#  Zylesea :

 2008/1/15 1:11
# The Efika2 will be a develpment platform for the 5121, just like the
Efika is for the 5200B.

And about MOS on these devices - who knows, but better concentrate and
be happy with the soon coming release for the Pegasos 1&2 and the
Efika1.

#  Velcro_SP :

 2008/1/15 17:58
# Quote:

And about MOS on these devices - who knows, but better concentrate and and be happy with the soon coming release for the Pegasos 1&2 and the Efika1.


Zylesea, I always think of the key goal as an end-user product, which would be a computer sold with OS in a user-friendly, standard way. Is anybody selling Efika like that? GGS-Data sets up systems but I dunno if they are big enough or successful enough to be considered to have standardized the Efika product. As slow as things move in this community, the various LimePC models may be released to end-users before a standardized Efika product is.

I don't think it's enough to release MOS 2.0 and sell $99 Efika boards and expect average users to sweat the details and buy a case and connect wires and troubleshoot infinite configuration and installation problems.

I say great if MorphOS 2.0 is released for Efika, but it is also very attractive to look over those LimePC models. If the processor, circuitry, and graphics chips are generally supported by MOS, having previously been developed for Efika, then perhaps MOS can be adapted to the LimePC without reinventing the wheel, and that would be an end-user product that is slicker and easier and cheaper and maybe better than GGS-Data or others assembling Efika systems one-by-one in their workshops.

Here at http://youtube.com/watch?v=eb6bzKqA9-A is a cool video of LimePC models being demoed at CES.

Omen, thanks for the information.

#  Zylesea :

 2008/1/15 20:08
# @ VelcroSP

I agree mostly to all you say. It would be great to see MOs on those
LimeOS devices.
*BUT* those devices are not ready yet. But the Efika is. It was and
is avaiable. Also MOS 2.0 finally became close to be fiished. Isn't it
better to just complete the obvious, namely release MOS 2.0 as soon as
possible for the devices available until today (i.e. Pegasos and
Efika)? Once MOS 2.0 is rolled out, the dices can be rolled again, but
first finish *this* lap.

In the middle time line I would also love to see MOS on more devices -
and on devices that are a bit more end user appealing than the Efika
is. But step by step.

The step we are curently within is lasting way too long, thus finish
this step ASAP and *then* do the next move.

#  Omen :

 2008/1/17 2:00
# You're welcome Velcro_SP.

Yes, it is true that MorphOS 2.0 should come out first. This way Pegasos & Efika1 owners can use it.

After that, the focus can switch to supporting LimePC devices & Efika2 ( & even Mac Mini ). Because THTF is going after the mass market and will attract more users compared to Genesi who can only get a smaller ( niche ) market.

The LimePC products can sell hundreds of thousands or millions providing MorphOS a large opportunity to become adopted by many. Which is the best news I've heard in awhile. But we can't get ahead of ourselves here like was said by Zylesea.

No one else is making PPC hardware on a mass scale now that Apple switched to x86. That is why LimePC is exciting.

#  jcmarcos :

 2008/1/18 10:10
# Interesting read from the comments in a recent post in BBRV's blog:

Quote:

Quote:

Anonymous said...
I just do not understand why PowerPC is being left to die (and I work at IBM and listed on 18 patents, so don't report me to IANA), but I just don't understand the false caring/hopes given to Power.org. Shut it down! Let FSL go to ARM with i.MX and then Genesi can get on with real work for the developers that support them.

Raquel and Bill said...
Hi Anonymous, we feel your pain. The 5200B has possibilities. We are still working on that.
The 5121e could have been a great success at launch if it had supported hardware cache coherency. It did not.
BTW, we did some serious work on the TI OMAP Platform. The 5121e is still better...
We are looking very hard and hopefully at the 8610. We will keep you posted.


So, this looks like a talk between Genesi and an IBM employee that is also upset about PowerPC being left behind. Well, actually, he or she is not upset: Agrees with switching to another CPU architecture.

BBRV replies saying that the 8610 SOC is cool, and sure it is. But what if it ends up sharing "technical challenges" with the 5121e? A chip that looks great on paper, and when it comes out lacks hardware cache coherency...

As if I knew what it is :-) Can anyone here explain? I guess one can use a CPU even if it doesn't have this feature, but what are the compromises?

Anyway, does it sound like a good idea to lock your company to another's company not products, but promises? Isn't any decent silicon out there to make real, decent products, instead of waiting months for samples, and then realize they don't work as advertised? This is crazy, because is the same hole as the Articia fiasco, five years ago!

There's also an interesting read in thispost from BBRV in Power Developer.

[ Edited by jcmarcos on 2008/1/18 11:07 ]

#  Omen :

 2008/1/19 4:16
# 8610 is based off the e600 core & close to design of the ( essentially same as ) MPC744x & MPC864x, according to Freescale Fact Sheet. Pegasos G4 uses MPC7447 so MorphOS shouldn't have trouble working on this CPU.

The biggest thing against PowerPC CPUs is price. That is why this architecture is dying out. To illustrate this, I'll briefly compare the 8610 & 5200.

The best things ( in terms of performance ) about the 8610 is that it brings a higher speed of 1333 MHz, Altivec, 4 Integer Units & 256KB L2 Cache.

5200B in comparison does not have Altivec, max speed of 400 MHz, 1 Integer Unit & no L2 Cache.

MPC5200B ( Efika1 processor ) sells for just under $20 wholesale.

MPC8610 will sell for $176 wholesale from Freescale and processor availability happens in mid 2008. Wholesale prices obtained from Freescale site.

Notice the big price difference!

The problem is the processor cost for PowerPC. If Genesi does use the 8610 in their upcoming board, after Efika2, then I can only imagine what their boards will end up costing.

The fault lies with IBM & Freescale for not having more competitive pricing to x86 processors. I can go to the computer store & buy Athlon 64 X2 4000 EE for $70 retail. So, it makes me wonder why PowerPC CPUs are not coming down in price.

At least Genesi made a smart move by producing Efika which allowed people to get a lower end system to play with MorphOS. Efika2 ( & LimePC ) will have somewhat better specs than Efika1. So, will be cool to see what happens with them. And let's not forget the Mac Mini too.

#  ironfist :

 2008/1/19 9:17
# Omen:
There is a big reason why PowerPC CPUs are so costly. It's
all about simple business economics.

Intel and AMD manufacture products for consumers (end-users).
They have to be cheap to even sell their CPUs to consumers.

Freescale and IBM couldn't care less about consumers. They
sell to companies. It's pure B2B. I know this, since I run a
company myself. I wouldn't even dream of selling computer-
parts to consumers, as I wouldn't make a dime from it.

However, selling B2B with a nice support-package generates
alot more income.

It's not only about volumes, since Freescale sells millions of
low-power PowerPC CPUs.

Apple did sell PowerPC CPUs to consumers, yes. But the Apple
market was merely a few percent for both Freescale and IBM,
so it wasn't worth much. They didn't care.

Freescale live happily on the car industry and IBM on their x86
servers. Yes, see the latest report from IBM. The iSeries is a big
failure and they make their money on x86, not POWER.

Oh.. One more thing. Windows Vista doesn't run on PowerPC.

#  Omen :

 2008/1/19 20:11
# Yes Ironfist. I realize the PowerPC business is all about B2B, but that is no excuse to sell for / charge excessively high prices.

$176 wholesale price for a single core 1.33Ghz PPC CPU w/256KB cache is too much. How can another company use it in a product and make money off of it? The high pricing of the CPUs is why PPC will stay a small market & never expand and allows x86 & ARM to dominate the world.

It is no wonder that Apple decided to switch over to x86 with Intel Macs - because of cost. It surprised me at first to hear this news but seems to have been a good move for Apple.

I realize that IBM & Freescale only care mainly in selling to automotive and embedded market. And have little interest in the desktop market. The only thing keeping PowerPC alive on the desktop is MorphOS, AmigaOS & those still using OS X on PPC computers. Otherwise, PPC would have disappeared from desktop / workstation by now since IBM & Freescale don't seem to care about being in the desktop market and in offering competitive pricing to x86. The only PPC CPUs well priced are the lower end models, ie: 5200B, 5121e,....

I know it won't happen but I'd like to see some affordable dual core PPC processors.

Just to note, x86 runs more than Windows. It does Linux, BSD, BeOS/Haiku, Syllable, SkyOS, Solaris, OS X ( on Intel Macs ), AROS, etc., etc. ;-)

People only buy PowerPC hardware these days to run MorphOS. Amiga still hasn't come out with hadware for AmigaOS. Apple has moved over to x86. So, who would buy PowerPC hardware without MorphOS, AmigaOS & OS X? Efika1 & Efika2 are smart moves by Genesi because it allows a low cost way to get onto MorphOS which sells / attracts more users. 8610 goes after higher end and will get fewer people buying these boards / systems.

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